Adornments – Fitnah?
April 12, 2007 at 12:06 pm | In Islam, Women | 45 CommentsI decided to paint my nails a lovely dusky pink shade today. Whilst tapping away on the keyboard remembered that some deem nail varnish to be a form of adornment. Alongside rings, nose studs and necklaces.
They take this verse from Surah An-Nisaa
[24:31]And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof
to propose those body parts on which these adornments lay or are worn on should be covered since they fall under the category of enhancing or improving a womans zeenah (beauty), attract attention and therefore can cause fitnaah
So if you wear a nose stud, you should wear niqaab or take it out. If you wear rings/nail varnish, you should either remove them or wear gloves and if you wear a necklace then it should be tucked into your top or you should drape your khimaar over it.
Some of the opinions on the issue of jewellery can be seen here but focuses on attention. In the above link it was advised that
Depending on what type it is and what quantity your daughter wears, how much is this an issue? Perhaps a compromise can be reached here. What your daughter should avoid is any type of jewelry which draws attention, like ankle bracelets, for example. But if she is talking about wearing a ring and a wrist bracelet, for example, then this is permissible
How can an anklet draw any more attention than a wrist bracelet or a watch? An anklet would probably only show if you wore your skirt or trousers a little bit higher to show off your ankles (or if you consider feet awrah then they would be covered) but it’d most probably be covered by clothing anyway.
The verse by some has been understood to refer to
….the directive to not display beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appears in terms of ordinary adornment and extra adornment. Ordinary adornments like kohl, henna, or a ring are permissible to wear in public
So who catergorises and judges what is ordinary adornment and what is extra adornment?
In short, any type of adornment which makes a woman look “made-up” and attracts amorous attention is not permissible, as this would defeat the whole purpose of hijab.
Some would consider kohl to attract attention and therefore not be applied at all, yet the same doesnt apply with make up. But isn’t kohl a make up product? Aren’t rings and bracelets and other items of jewellery extra adornments? Isn’t their purpose to beautify one, and ones clothing?
But does beautifying yourself necessarily lead to fitnaah (cause or resulting in)?
What if you naturally gorgeous (no such luck here), are you an automatic fitnaah and therefore should cover every inch of yourself lest you be held accountable for enticing and tempting men?
Where is the adornment = fitnah line drawn?
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As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,
Well, I wear ‘abaayah as well as a khimaar, so I often wear necklaces and whatnot, but it’s always hidden by my ‘abaayah. I sometimes wear bracelets if my ‘abaayah sleeves are extra-long, but I’m not allowed to wear bangles outside (because they make noise and attract attention – and like the aayah says, don’t stamp your feet so that your anklets make noise to attract attention, so the same goes with the bangles…).
I do wear rings, though… a very small, simple gold one that my aunt gave me several years ago and which I haven’t taken off since (I even wear it to bed!
). And I don’t have a nose ring or stud, so I don’t need to worry about that!
I don’t wear any makeup at all… I used to sometimes wear kohl when I was younger, but now I go out in public every day so I’m not allowed to anymore. And I don’t wear nail polish because it’s too much of a bother to keep having to remove it when I need to make wudhu…
Basically, my understanding is that it’s okay – in fact, it’s great – to make yourself all pretty at home, but when you go in public you have to either cover yourself head-to-toe (like my mom does) so that your jewelry and stuff isn’t seen, or just remove all the adornments and look plain. After all, that IS part of the point of wearing hijaab, no?
-Mouse
Comment by AnonyMouse — April 12, 2007 #
WalaykumAsalaam
Yes theres no prohibition to wearing make up, short clothes, or noisy jewellery at home.
But I don’t see where “extra adornment” and “normal” jewellery categories come from. Isn’t ALL jewellery “extra adornment”? Including watches? And aren’t certain pieces of jewellery culture specific? (culturally everythings blurred these days, but anklets and bangles were generally not worn by women in the West)
Ive worn anklets numerous times outside, and yes they have wee tinkly bits on them, that if you stamp your foot hard enough (never needed to stamp my foot) they make some form of a wee “ting” but that verse refers to women who would deliberately stamp their feet, and by aid of the jingly noisy anklets, attract attention. It was all deliberate and purposely orchastrated.
Does that imply if you do adorn yourself with these anklets and bangles (outside the home) that you wish to draw attention to yourself and that is why you wear them? Because from some of the answers on this topic, thats what they seem to infer.
oh and I wear rings all the time. I dont consider them to attract attention, and if they do its the right sort of attention(keep the biddy matchmaking aunties away)
Comment by Sumera — April 12, 2007 #
The people who give this sort of advice would also tell us the best thing for women would be to not come out of the house unless they really really needed to.
Comment by sonia — April 12, 2007 #
Mashallah. I was wondering about this myself. Once I was with a friend who is really pretty mashallah. One sister asked if she would wear niqab if she went back to the states for her visit. She replied No of course… and forget it the other sister was like well your very beautiful so i think you need to wear niqab. My friend was like whatever dude. She was so upset because she is very respective of hijab and for this woman to come and make her feel like just because she was blessed with beauty she had to cover her face. Everyone has their own idea of what is attractive and what not.
I think a person needs to use their judgment to know whats right and what’s not. Like for instance you say you like rings. I love rings. Especially silver ones. One thing I do is wear and abaya with longer sleeves in order to cover them up part way that way I don’t have to wear gloves or take my rings off. Some people wear jewelry and you would never know.
Anonymouse brought up some excellent points about not wearing bangles and such when out in public. the ayat form the quran are there for us to use as well. What is the purpose of wearing our modest clothing if we are to just dress it up at the same time.
Another point I like to touch on is the anklets and just adorning oneself in the home. Like a woman would be adorned at home sometimes so she forgets when she goes out to cover up. It has to do with your intention. Are you going out to attract attention or not? I go out all the time with my rings but it’s because I love them so much and I just never remember about them. But I am not trying to go and put myself out there. I hope I make sense here.
Anyways very interesting topic. I have to think more about it. See you deserve the big time thinking blogger award!
was salam
sheryza
Comment by Sheryza — April 13, 2007 #
I once heard a lecture in which the speaker explained that the word ‘adornment’ can also refer to breasts so hiding adornments actually means keeping the breasts covered. This is because women in early Arabia used to wear very flimsy clothes to fight the heat. Remember how the Prophet (pbuh) saw Zainab (pbuh)? The speaker referred to that episode and explained that today women are covered (at least the chest) even at home whereas women in the past often wore very little clothes or nothing at all because of the heat.
Allah knows better. Just thought I’d share this here.
Comment by Suroor — April 13, 2007 #
Sonia: That’s already been discussed and flabbergasted at here ! Seems like for some pregnant women having to leave the home to give birth isnt considered necessary either!
Sheryza: I personally think beauty is subjective, and as a result what one considers beautiful and attractive (and therefore fitnafied) may differ from someone’s perception. And indeed it does seem like being beautiful or being blessed with beauty is something you’re held accountable for if you don’t de-fitnafy yourself (Im loving that word!) But yes, its about intention. Which is why im not too sure why wearing anklets or heels that may make noise is automatically deemed to related to wanting attention. I’ve never seen anyone striking or stamping their foot deliberately..they usually just holler if they want attention!
Suroor: I’ve always understood the adornment reference to refer to breasts/the bosom, – draw your cloaks and cover that which is apparent- thats why I don’t really quite understand where jewellery and these other things have managed to be categorised under that. Wouldnt they come under the category of “hijaab”? And Suroor, can I ask, what your understanding of the “striking of the feet” is? I’ve always understood it to be referring to women who deliberately and purposely stamped their feet to get attention, and not that these tinklets themselves make some noise.
Comment by Sumera — April 13, 2007 #
dunno about adornment… though i can see both sides.
did you know though that nail polish doesnt come off if you die wearing it? therefore your body can’t be washed completely….
Comment by somethingtobe — April 13, 2007 #
This is a hard one. As somethingtobe said, one can see both sides of the debate. I think this is one of those cases where the interpreter has the final say in things.
Comment by Aliana — April 14, 2007 #
De-fintnafy…nice I love it too. Where ever did you come up with it…? Great POV’s mashallah.
Comment by Sheryza — April 14, 2007 #
(This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, so I apologize… but just wanted to remind you to pleeeeaaaaaaase add MuslimMatters.org to your blogroll!
)
-Mouse
Comment by AnonyMouse — April 14, 2007 #
Maryam: Thanks for the scary thought :p
Aliana: I wonder which interpretation would be most appealing? Perhaps with all the commotion not Dr Bakhtair’s!
Sheryza: I come up with some bizarre and quirky things from time to time. Twiddling thumbs do that
Anonymouse: Done dear! Thanks for the reminder
Comment by Sumera — April 14, 2007 #
Sumera, IMHO and from what Abi explained to me, noisy anklets are definitely considered haraam. When a woman wears such anklets and then walks ’striking’ her feet they make noise and attract attention.
But there is another reason behind it. In Pre-Islamic Quraish, gypsy women sang and danced for tribes and these women were also prostitutes. They wore gold anklets that made sound and had very thin eyebrows. Thus, Muslim women were not allowed to wear gold anklets or those that made sound and were also not allowed to thread their eyebrows too thin so that they were never mistaken for the gypsy prostitutes.
Comment by Suroor — April 15, 2007 #
By noisy anklets, I always picture those ones that courtesans wear. How noisy is noisy? Because I was wondering, if you were in a busy marketplace, would you be able to hear them? (I know this is becoming a bit pedantic, but I honestly believe these things need to be seen within a given context):p
Comment by Sumera — April 15, 2007 #
Today, as I stood in the queue at Starbucks I found myself thinking about modesty and adornment. The two Arab women directly in front of me did not wear hijaab but had simple hairstyles, and were wearing trousers and loose shirts. Some would look at their hair showing or their pants-clad forms and say they were immodest.
In front of them was a typical group of Qatari women. They had on richly ornamented abayas and shaylas with glass beads and sequins embellishing the flowing sleeves and filmy shaylas. Their make-up was applied very thickly, with eyes rimmed in kohl and drawn up at the corners to accentuate a cat-like shape. The lips were outlined sharply in a lip liner and then filled in with various shades of red, with a thick application of gloss to finish them off. Naturally, I could smell them before I even saw them — that is what bathing in half a bottle of perfume will do. Purses, shoes and sunglasses ranged from Chanel to Dior to Bulgari — all labels and logos prominently displayed. Yes, they were essentially covered in black from head to toe (and even arranged their shaylas as face veils when leaving) in what many consider the Muslim prescription for female dress.
But tell me, who is more modest?
Comment by peacefulmuslimah — April 15, 2007 #
From the time I was growing up, anklets were like a big NO-NO in my family. I think it stems up from the same point as Suroor has added. We were told that prostitutes would wear *jingling(?)* anklets and the same with very thin eyebrows. My quesiton is, what about those fine/think chains worn as anklets???
Comment by sf — April 15, 2007 #
Peace to the Peaceful Muslimah…
I see where you’re coming from. There are rules about the material aspect of hijab; that is, the clothes you wear to cover your awrah should not be too ’showy’, as it defeats the purpose of covering to deflect unwanted attention. Also, women are not allowed to go out in public heavily perfumed, so that people walking by can smell them. It’s kinda common sense, really… but it is also defined by Islamic code of conduct for those who lack such sense (like me!).
I admit that i don’t go out dressed head to toe in black… my jilbab today is light brown with a dark brown floral pattern sown on… i wouldn’t call it ’showy’. I prefer to wear plain but a little pretty. But then again, maybe in someone else’s eyes, i’m a big hussy! A’authobillah.
Comment by iMuslim — April 16, 2007 #
I think we know when we are adorning ourselves.I have two abayas. One I wear all the time, it is over the head and completely closed. The other stays in my closet, because it was an open abaya that I had the taylor put snaps on , but it still showed my clothes. A few weeks ago my closed abyah got ripped in the wheels of the stroller (happens to me every few months..lol). I totally forgot that I had a doctors appontment for the kids and at the last minute I grabbed the abayah with snaps and took the kids to the doctor. It just so happened that I was wearing the first pair of pants that I have worn in a long time. I wear dresses and skirts all the time, but lately I have been feeling kinda cute and saw these cute pants and bought them jus for lounging around the house in. When I went out with that abayah and pants on I felt like such a SLUT! ROFL! seriously, I wanted to run back home. Nobody made me feel that way and I would not have looked at anybody else dressed like me and condemned them, but I felt trashy.
Comment by ummadam — April 16, 2007 #
[...] First it was Sumera. [...]
Pingback by Everyone’s Talking Hijab at Ijtema — April 17, 2007 #
peacefulmuslimah; in my opinion the two Arab women who did not wear hijaab but had simple hairstyles, and were wearing trousers and loose shirts would be more modest than the group of Qatari women you had described which to me seems arrogant.
As iMuslim wrote, there are rules about the material aspect of hijab.
Comment by 2jay — April 17, 2007 #
Ditto with Suroor. Noisy anklet does draw a lot of attention. Marketplace doesn’t make it any better, because for the most part, unless you are in a stock market, noisy anklet is more likely to make louder noise,
About Kohl. The reason it is allowed is because it is not particularly “make up” because Kohl is actually good for your eyes, and our Prophet (pbuh) used to use them.
Nose piercing: for the most part, I find them really attractive ( a lot of times, I feel like those are also very inviting… sometimes flirty, of course take the age of the girl into consideration).
Of course, I disagree with my younger sister all the time, who’s got her nose pierced, and almost always wears make up (I fear it has become more of an addiction for her).
I guess, at the end, most importantly, eventually you will get sense of right and wrong in your her, as Allah says in the Quran that the sense is given in our heart ( I vaguely remember some verses that talk about it, and that would be my personal interpretation). And hopefully, we will just “hear and obey” to please Allah only!
my two cents with some nickels and dimes
Comment by squarecut — April 17, 2007 #
PM: I left my opinion on that at your blog
iMuslim: Some women (and men) think that colours are subjective and open to cultural interpretation. So a black jilbaab in the summer MAY attract attention than say a brighter coloured one due to the colour of clothing most people wear in the summer. The opposite goes for winter.
In some countries its perfectly normal and ok to wear bright colours because that is the norm, anything else and its considered attractive attention and therefore fitnaafied. Im sure your brown jilaab was pretty and not a cause for concern!
sf: For myself, anklets have always been seen as a pretty adornment. The jingly ones irritated me and still do to this day. So I do wear anklets, small thin ones, and I do have some that sport wee tinklets, but they dont jingle a loud jangle so I consider them ok to wear.
Umm adam: I think that might have been because you were used to wearing the one type of jilbaab for outside, and another for inside the home and so when you did have to swap out of necessity that line blurred and you felt the way you did. So yes, to a certain extent adornment itself is subjective.
Comment by Sumera — April 17, 2007 #
2jay: Modesty, or to be more exact hijaab, is definitely not solely linked to covering of the head. Its a whole set of behaviours and mannerisms. But those Khaleeji women that PM described seem to contravene the concept of modesty yet are clad in what would be considered correct clothing for a Muslim woman. Strange isn’t it?
Squarecut: I consider anything cosmetic/application that enhances your natural looks to come under make-up, so thats why I include kohl in that category. I had read somewhere that kohl should be avoided since it contains carbon? And is much better suited to hotter climates? I’ll dig that article up as soon as I find it.
Nose piercings…again, I tend to view these things within a cultural context. If nose piercings were the norm, no-one would notice them and they wouldnt necessarily be attractive. So would they still not be allowed to wear? Or would not wearing one attract MORE attention in such an instance and so perhaps wearing one might be better? Confusing or what!
Comment by Sumera — April 17, 2007 #
Funny thing is whenever the argument comes about a “hypothetical” society where “some practice” is a norm and HENCE not doing it may attract more attention, I don’t find them confusing.
), should I take off my hijab in order to “blend in”? Possibly NOT! Because, when talking about “attention” it’s not talking about going against the norm or blending in. It’s talking about “attention” in way Quran and Sunnah have defined. In some african culture, people don’t even wear clothes, so suppoe we go to visit them, should we take off our clothes as well? Probably not.
For example, both you and I live in the west, and both of us are hijabis. This is certainly NOT the norm. In fact, after 9/11, even MANY Shuyukh suggsted to take off the hijab if we “fear” backlash (in words BAD attention). But, Alhamdulillah, we decided to leave them on. But, watch this: I am the ONLY scarfhead in this entire 14 floor building (if there is anyone else, I have not come across, so I take that if any other muhajiba exist in the building,t hey are hidden and hence don’t count,
My understanding is that things like dark lipsticks, a diamond nosering (or whatever you call it) are alluring. In almost all movies, dark lipsticks are associated with prostititues, or some official female agents whose seduction is the key to some sort of business agenda. Even though, you and I agree that any makeup (other than necessary stuff) does come under that “attracting attention” thing, what I am trying to say is that, I don’t find certain situations “confusing” where your Islamic practice in itself may be atrracting attention. The point is NOT to live upto some standard of any society, the point is to live upto Allah’s command.
What do you think?
Comment by squarecut — April 17, 2007 #
I had read somewhere that kohl should be avoided since it contains carbon?
I thought the issue was that dodgy surma may be contaminated with lead. Pure surma should be ok, inshallah.
However, how can one be sure that the surma is pure, without running a DIY chemical test (like the ones that I always messed up in school Chem class!)?
I also avoid kohl/kaajal in public, as it clearly beautifies the eyes… in fact, kaajal is my favourite method of beautification! Simple, quick, and very effective.
Comment by iMuslim — April 17, 2007 #
Asalamu Walikum alls…I get that we are talking about adornments here, but I’m seeing their is another issue here that the nailpolish especially involves. Most of us know you can’t pray…well you can’t make proper wudo with polish on. So, when sister’s wear polish they are either ignorant or not praying…or taking it off for each wudu? I know sisters that wear it while on their menses and um I think that’s pretty weird, but I can understand if a gal wants to doll herself up for herself, so in that context…yeah okay. But is there a such a habit of woman wearing polish while menstrating as an indication that they are???
The same for make-up. A woman in hijab with flawless make-up…ummm, is she really going to ruin that to make wudu? So maybe the issue isn’t JUST about modesty.
Comment by Brooke aka Ummbadier — April 17, 2007 #
SC: My issue isn’t with the hijaab or jilbaab or any other item of clothing that is Islamic practise, but its surrounding the issue of adornment and what/when is something classified as being adorning?
In those links I put up, they mention rings and bracelets to be ok, but others would see that as being a complete no. Hijaab that is brightly coloured may be seen as a form of adornment – but dull colours that detract attention aren’t and so are preferable. But that differ from country to country and from culture to culture. So who decides whats attracting attention and whats detracting it? Thats the point im trying to make
and as far as roaming around naked..never! I feel naked in a short sleeve top, so never mind anything more (or should that be less?) than that.
And re the make up issue, I wear concealor to cover my dark circles under the eyes otherwise I look like a zombie. I dont consider it alluring in the slightest, its too look awake!
iMuslim: I don’t trust any of these surma’s you get in the high st. I think babies with surma in their eyes look horrid! I definitely can’t bring myself to applying surma…its too nerve wracking having that stick anywhere near your eye. Though I love eyeliner!
Brooke: I think most know wudhu isnt valid with nail polish on. I haven’t come across women who apply nail polish as an advertisment for their “painter” status, but I suppose some see it that way. Wudhu doesn’t necessarily need to wash off all of your make up, so long as the water is able to penetrate the layer and reach the skin. So waterproof make up would invalidate wudhu and therefore salat. Thats my understanding of it.
Comment by Sumera — April 17, 2007 #
looool
i see the sisters are quite good at satire
the logical conclusion is that perfect black shuttlecock burqa with gloves and black boots is the only thing that women can wear
since all women are going to be found in some way beautiful
great expose of the need for men to learn restraint instead of objectifying women and them blaming them
well done
Comment by eteraz — April 17, 2007 #
Some may find the shuttlecock burqa and gloves alluring, particularly if they have some kind of glove fetish.
It just seems that nothing is sufficient enough. The purpose of the hijaab is not purely for safety, or to act as a shield against pervy men.
I agree with men needing to learn restraint, but how do they go about it? Because theres a DIRE need of it in Muslim lands.
Comment by Sumera — April 17, 2007 #
[...] Clothing and Adornment Offshoot In addition to the discussion on Adornments = Fitnah? please do contribute to the discussions springing up in blogsphere on the topic of modesty, [...]
Pingback by Modesty, Clothing and Adornment Offshoot « Inner Reflections Transcribed — April 18, 2007 #
Assalamu ‘alaykum wa rahmatullah
I pray that you are in the best of health & imaan.
This is a short message to notify you that this entry has been selected for publishing on I J T E M A; a venture to highlight the best of the Muslim blogosphere.
To find out more about I J T E M A, and how you can further contribute, please click here.
May Allah bless you for your noble efforts.
Wa’salam
Comment by iMuslim — April 20, 2007 #
Salaam ‘Alaikum
Someone made a comment about “those scholars above” thinking that women should probably just stay home. I’m a little tired of this attitude on Muslim blogs. Someone says something you don’t like, so you slam them? In the case of SunniPath.com, they only answer what they are specifically asked. I can assure you that they’re not sitting around day and night thinking of ways to make things “harder” for women. If you don’t like the answer, well, you don’t.
You know what adorns you and what doesn’t. You have chosen the methodology that you follow Shari’ah by and that gives you guidelines. I kind of wish we would stop obsessing about this.
Regarding kohl not being beautifying, it is my understanding from reading “fashion history” that kohl’s original purpose was to protect the eyes from sunlight. It is still used this way by some people, although I have a feeling it’s probably not the majority of people logging on to SP.com and blogs and the like. So in that sense, perhaps it is considered partly necessary for a person to wear, vs. makeup / beautification, even though we are certainly in the era of designer sunglasses and the like.
And regarding the women in the cafe? I don’t think it’s one group more modest than the other. Sounds like neither group of women were. Your mileage is free to vary.
Comment by UmmZaid — April 20, 2007 #
iMuslim: WalaykumAsalaam. JazakAllahu Khayr !
UmmZaid: WalaykumAsalaam. The issue isn’t with adornment per se, but what is considered adornment seems to differ between ever evolving cultures and even within Muslims. When there is inconsistency amongst the scholars/shaykhs, then its imperitive on us to delve further and follow the strongest opinion. Its not about shopping around for an answer that suits us.
Even if kohls primary purpose may be protective, its secondary effect is also beautification to some. Again from my understanding the majority of ulama consider the latter and therefore deem it impermissible.
Comment by Sumera — April 20, 2007 #
Hi, I hope you don’t mind me making a comment. I am not muslim, nor religious, but I am very interested in how women in general think about life. I think, in the end women will have to save the world, and to do that, we have to get to know and understand eachother.
My question to your subject and all these comments is, isn’t it down to the men, to respect women and resist any temptation , no matter how beautiful they are? Why does Islam impose these laws on women. Why do you all agree with covering up, to show you are modest.Modesty is all in your heart.
In the end it is your mindset and your heart that tell you how to behave. If that means you only want to be beautiful for your husband, that is great. But by what I read here, I get the impression that Muslim men are the real problem. Is it so hard for them to pass by a good looking woman without being tempted? Do they have any respect for women at all?
I think they do. One of my best friends was a Muslim Morrocon male. He respected me, and I was certainly not bad looking(it was a while ago).
It is rules and regulations that don’t seem to make sense. They exist in any religion, and they make people waste their time thinking and arguing ( or even fighting) about them, while more important things shyould be done, like creating peace and understanding.
Comment by roos — April 20, 2007 #
Roos: Thanks for visiting and participating!
Modesty is applicable to both men and women, and each sex has set rules governing clothing. The rules or guidance concerning behaviour, attitude and actions however are the same for both genders.
The rules for clothing isn’t solely constrained to reducing temptation, but also concerns presenting yourself as respectable, dignified and believing individuals.
In any culture, societal norms will have a part to play re modesty. And there is no denying in most incidences the amount of flesh on show is usually equated to being, or potentially leading to, loose and immoral conduct and generally does not create a good impression at all. Thats not an isolated view by Muslims; it’s shared by many people, regardless of background, race, faith and creed.
We can’t blame temptation to one gender alone and therefore apply restrictions only on them. Men have responsibility to address their inclinations towards women, and women of course have their part to play in deflecting attention. Its a 2 way process.
It is not surprising that men find women attractive, even if things are platonic between them, as friends the attraction is still there. It does not necessarily always have to be of an intense nature, which is quite apparent of those friendships between men and women that initially were platonic, but then blossom into a relationship. The potential is always there.
Yes women also find men attractive, but the attraction that men have for women by far outweighs the former. The same applies for most species, outside and above humans.
These guidelines concerning modesty and clothing is there first and foremost as a reminder of this, and anything else is secondary.
I dont believe in tackling things in a sequential order, where you address one aspect until its perfected or reached a desirable level of expertise and then focus on everything else. I think by addressing these issues, and the gaps and misunderstandings not only are we contributing towards a better understanding of one another, but we aren’t brushing problems under the carpet. So its a balance.
And yes, we women have to work together to save this dire planet! The men don’t seem to be doing a good job at all.
Thanks for visiting Roos!
Comment by Sumera — April 20, 2007 #
Mashallah, dear sis. I feel like publishing your response alone! I agree with your sentiments, but you wrote it so nicely; made me smile.
May Allah make you even wiser! Ameen.
Comment by iMuslim — April 20, 2007 #
JazakAllahu Khayr iMuslim.
May Allah make all of us knowledegable and encourage us to put that wisdom to good use!
Ameen.
Comment by Sumera — April 20, 2007 #
Wow! For some reason, why do I feel Ummzaid’s comment, in this diasporaof uninformed opinions (often in a mocking tone), the only reasonable comment?
I guess we can all interpert hijaab in whatever way we want to. And I don’t know which inconsistency you are talking about, open any classical books of fiqh (that is if you can understand arabic), and they are pretty clear about what ‘hijaab’ is.
The problem arises, when individuals, such as the ones here. Who have no back ground in any Islaamic sciences, don’t understand how each word is used and contextualized in a verse. Probably can’t even differentiate qati’ and zanni. And, they start ‘interpreting’ and ‘analyzing’ ‘proof’. (btw, do you even know what consists of proof?)
It’s like a novice, after having taken h.s. biology, decides to become a quack.
And I leave you with two passages from Qur’an:
‘…fas alu ahl adhdhikri in kuntum la ta’alamun…’
and
‘…wataba3 assabeela man anaaba ilayia…’
wassalaam.
Comment by nuqtah — April 21, 2007 #
Nuqtah: I suppose there will always be a group of Muslims who follow and adhere to things without questioning, without asking where things have derived from and why it is the case.
We obviously don’t fit into that category, hence the discussion. Hence any discussion re Islam on and off Blogsphere infact.
Comment by Sumera — April 21, 2007 #
Theres a difference between
a) blind conformity
b) Following the informed opinion of an expert
c) Seeking further clarification.
d) Questioning fundamentals, and forming uninformed opinions. And, projecting them as being right.
…so, I guess people here fal into this last category?
10 years down the line, you people would be still discussing the same topic.
And the way you mock those who choose to follow ‘inheritors of the Prophets’ is appaling. May Allah keep this deen preserved through our scholars, ameen.
Comment by nuqtah — April 23, 2007 #
Nuqtah: I dont see anyone mocking anyone else.
And no-one is projecting their opinion on an issue as being the “right” one. Its a discussion surrounding the opinions put forward for clarification. You view it as something else obviously. Despite your outlook, theres no “ulterior motive” so perhaps you should remove the narrow lens and see the discussion for what it is.
Comment by Sumera — April 23, 2007 #
Sumera:
Thanks for your very interesting answer.
I am looking for my own answer regarding the troubles we are facing in the world. =Understanding the way you think and live your lives is, I think, the first step in finding a way to peace.
I have great respect for you all.
Comment by Roos — April 23, 2007 #
Thanks Roos. Its great to have input from others, as sharing points of views and opinions helps us understand one another. I hope you continue to visit
Comment by Sumera — April 23, 2007 #
Discussion it is. No one denies that, but is discussion on issues, requiring a certain level of knowledge, open to any tom, dick, or harry?
Let me just pose a very simple analogy: If some one has a severe illness…should they create a post on a blog opening it up to discussion among the general masses, seeking a *cure*? Or should they approach a medical expert?
Although, technically they could carry out such a discussion. But, is it the best and most rational way to do it?
[ regarding mocking the ulema, I quote:
“I suppose there will always be a group of Muslims who follow and adhere to things without questioning, without asking where things have derived from and why it is the case.”
Comment by nuqtah — April 23, 2007 #
Sorry, didnt notice your comment – they keep going into “spam” for some reason.
I don’t quite understand what your understanding of the term “discussion” is. Seeking the viewpoint of people as to what they perceive to be adorning is not an indirect way of dismissing the guidance and guideline given on the issue. Same as discussing any other issue, such as polygyny, adoption/fostering, divorce. And discussion will not be limited by the level of knowledge you hold, how would anyone be able to learn if you set bars on such a thing? Its slightly elitist.
Regarding seeing an “expert” in the field, great if one is able to have access to one then sure, go to him/her. But not all topics derive from wanting an opinion to follow. They are initiated to generate a discussion and share people’s understanding of the issue (whether it is a “right” understanding or “wrong”)
Unless suddenly one isn’t permitted to discuss anything for fear of “leading people astray”. If a mere discussion on a topic is enough to put people into a state of awry, then that says more about the strength of their faith than the topic at hand.
That quote is not mocking in nature, and its not mocking the “ulema”. Its a general view and point that there will always be a group of people who don’t take things as they are given. I dont consider a bit of self-sufficiency and independent learning (in combination with other types of learning) was regarded or seen as mocking the ulema. I have to say, thats a strange concept you hold.
Comment by Sumera — April 24, 2007 #
I see what you are getting. But without proper guidance and grounding, you are opening a pandora’s box.
Comment by nuqtah — April 25, 2007 #