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An interesting discussion going on over at Achelois on the above topic. Check it out
I think it is good way. But generally i am against homosexuality.
These are interesting times and interesting solutions. It is much better than a gay man “forced” to marry a straight woman and ruining her life.
I read one hadith where Prophet Muhammad strictly forbade a man from marrying if he did not have any sexual attraction towards women (don’t have the link on me now). It would be much easier if Muslims followed this law rather than trying to “save face”.
These marriages are obviously invalid according to Islam, but there has to be some other alternative to regulate these relationships. The reason I say regulate is becuase I can’t seem to understand the homosexual attitude. They don’t seem to be normal people with normal lives. Perhaps, my understanding is influenced by TV, where Gay characters are shown as people who can’t seem to think beyond sex. Regardless of this, their sexual activity has to be regulated in some way or form. More than that, there has to be some sort of support base to treat such wrong inclinations.
Tia I found your comment to be rather strange and amusing. Maybe the reason you can’t understand the homosexual attitude is because you don’t know any gays. That seems pretty apparent from the “they don’t seem like normal people with normal lives” comment. Maybe you should actually talk to some gay people instead of basing your opinions of them off of what you see on TV. That would be a start.
“their sexual activity has to be regulated in some way or form”
LOL, what would you suggest? Should we start installing video cameras in people’s bedrooms? Obviously, we really have no idea who is gay just by looking at them so we’d have to install a camera in your bedroom too. Your husband could be gay for all you know. Heck, you might even be homosexual Tia. And we shouldn’t just stop with regulating gay sexual activity. We need to regulate ALL sexual activity. We wouldn’t want normal heterosexual muslims engaging in anal sex or premarital sex or adulterous sex now would we.
“there has to be some sort of support base to treat such wrong inclinations.”
Attempts to “treat” gays have already been tried and continue to be tried by various Christian groups and has proved to be a greatly mocked not to mention hopeless failure.
Anyways, I used to think gay people actually chose to be gay, but after growing older and hopefully wiser I simply can’t comprehend why anyone (especially those living in the Middle East, South Asia, etc) would ever willingly choose that kind of lifestyle from themselves considering what they have to deal with. It really kind of makes no sense. If these types of marriages enable them to live a decent life free of harrassment than I’m all for it until something better is established. If people don’t like these types of marriages maybe they should consider not throwing homosexuals in jail or nagging them endlessly about why they haven’t gotten married yet. That would be an excellent start
I think you wholly misunderstood my comment. What I mean by regulating is that, we are very clear in terms of our limits. People can’t help having feelings for another, Islam teaches us to control these feelings and not be intimate with without marriage. Whereas for gays, there are no limits. Islam doesn’t recognise marriages between people of same gender, therefore which ever way we look at it, they are sinful.
In my opinion homosexuals should be punished similarly to the fornicators, because we simply cannot have people indulging in ‘free’ sexual activity in a morally good society.
I have always been able to tell a gay person from straight.
“I have always been able to tell a gay person from straight”
LOL, I somehow doubt that.
“we simply cannot have people indulging in ‘free’ sexual activity in a morally good society”
Well, technically a morally good society has never existed, nor will it ever exist. And frankly, I don’t think people engaging in premarital or homosexual sex (and I generally don’t condone either btw, just incase you think I’m some kind of Godless hedonist) is the cause of the state of affairs we see in the world today or the downward spiral from supposedly moral societies to immoral ones.
And this business of punishing fornicators/homosexuals and setting up earthly punishments for such actions I just find to be a complete waste of time and so unbelievably unrealistic and unproductive. People make these kind of comments yet really have absolutely no idea how to implement such ideas in a proper manner or even where to draw the line. Its all just utopian ramblings, kind of like those who are overly obsessed with the “Khalifah Now” and “establishing God’s Kingdom on earth” arguments (as if that will suddenly solve the world’s problems). To me it just indicates a lack of faith in God and his ability to mete out punishments after death.
And my last comment about this gay marriage issue: What I’ve always found very strange about the attitude towards homosexuals and subsequent treatment of them in the middle east and S.asia today is that these were the same muslim societies that were seemingly among the most tolerant of this kind of lifestyle and engaged in it and wrote about it openly even after the arrival of Islam during the era of the Khalifate, which according to most was the time of justness and morality in the muslim world
I must have this special ability that you don’t have :p
What you have done so far is to criticise how I would like the problem dealt with. I don’t accept sex outside marriage and I don’t accept marriages of the same gender, both for religious reasons. Therefore, I am only left with one advice which is that they should seek help and the problem should be treated according to Islam which includes punishment for the act. If you believe laws are a waste of time than perhaps you have never met child molesters, rapists, who seem to have the same kind of psychological illness. Try telling their victims laws are a waist and they should just wait for the day of judgment to seek justice!! sounds rather absurd to say the least.
It’s too easy to sit back, grab a few facts from history, and turn them into source of legislation …as if there are no real problems.
If a member of one’s own family was involved in gay/lesbian relationship the reaction changes. Would you approve of their impermissible relationship? Ask them to marry their gay/lesbian partner (Invalid)? or ask them to get involved in marriage of convenience (invalid)? Choices are limited, but if people are going to pretend that homosexuality can somehow be incorporated into Islam, the onus is on them to justify it.
First thing, I didn’t criticize the way you would deal with the problem because you don’t have a way to deal with the problem. You stated they should be punished. That’s not a plan or way. And no, “treatment” is not a way to deal with it because treatment has been tried many many times and failed. You generally don’t keep trying treatment plans with medicine or psychology that obviously fail all the time.
As to what you would do if your own family memeber was gay I frankly don’t see the difficulty in deciding what the proper thing to do would be. I never said anything about approving of the way a person lives. Just because you don’t condone it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be left alone in peace. My siblings and I asked our parents hypothetically what they’d do if we were gay when we were younger and my father stated immediately we would be disowned while my mother stated she would always love us, we would always be her children, but that didn’t mean she had to approve of or condone our lifestyle. I’ll leave it to you to decide what the appropriate response was. If people think that their personal honor rests on the actions of their family members than that is their problem and their weakness that they should deal with in an appropriate manner.
And I love how you apparently got from my comment that I think laws are a waste of time. Way to go for your reading comprehension skills. Since you apparently had difficulty reading what I wrote I’ll just write it again in simpler terms. I think people who are obsessed with earthly punishments for fornicators/homosexuals are generally people who do not have faith in God’s ability to mete out punishments on his own terms. If you’ll notice, nowhere did I mention that laws or a waste of time or that I don’t like them. That would be something you apparently think for all those who don’t think like you.
And the fact that you’ve resorted to comparing homosexuality and premarital sex and earthly punishments for these actions with child molestatio and rape and earthly punishments for these actions is really kind of pathetic imho.
I have one question for you with regards to this comment:
“I simply can’t comprehend why anyone (especially those living in the Middle East, South Asia, etc) would ever willingly choose that kind of lifestyle from themselves considering what they have to deal with.”
Now, I’ve heard this line of reasoning for quite some time, but I’ve yet to fully understand it. This is one of the reasons to support the genetic inborn homosexuality of gays, correct?
But I don’t understand how this logic cannot equally be applied to drug addicts or porn addicts or gamblers? They too have allowed their sickness to ruin their lives, yet they can’t stop doing it. Their lives and of those around them will slowly be going down the tubes, yet they remain insistent in their indulgences.
It seems the suffering is secondary to the ‘rush’ they receive from their addiction.
How can this not be applicable to the homosexual?
good points allegra
Tia actually you have originally admitted you don’t actually know anything about gay people – i mean there’s no reason why anyone should, if they aren’t gay themselves, but a little empathy and less of a judgemental attitude is useful in thinking about these matters surely? it’s interesting how you say gay people don’t lead normal lives – when actually a lot of people you know are probably secret lives. Do you think it is normal to lead a secret life? I have no idea where you come from and where you live, so i would hate to make hasty judgements, but an interesting insight i had when i lived in the indian sub-continent was how much of a double life so many people had.
I suppose at the end of the day, what discussions like this hinge on – is what people want to gain by talking to other people about these kinds of topics. I find them hugely useful to gauge what people’s attitudes are, they help me understand my own better. but the other thing is in speaking with other people, we can perhaps acknowledge that there are many other perspectives, viewpoints – that we might ourselves one day share, who knows, what’s interesting is that maybe it gives us a different insight.
given that so many people seem able to put ‘gays’ into a box, and be completely unaware that they are human individuals too, like our own personal selves, i daresay it isn’t suprising that some people insist on putting ‘women’ in one box, or ‘muslims’:
” ‘i don’t know – muslims just don’t lead normal lives, then again, i don’t really know any, i suppose i might be getting my ideas from tv”
( where have we heard that before!)
just shows what category Brother Naeem has already classified homosexuality – as a vice!
why is heterosexuality not a vice then?
“why is heterosexuality not a vice then?”
Because the Quran, Bible, Torah, name your holy scripture say its not.
I see your point Naeem, but the key difference is that drug,porn, alcohol, and whatever type of addicts have been treated successfully for their addictions where as treatments to reverse homosexuality has consistently not worked. I would tend to agree with your and Tia’s points more probably if treatment whether it be psychological or medicine had a proven track record of working for homosexuals as it did for addicts that you mentioned.
Hi I have been reading the comments with interest. I am a gay muslim. I have done the MOC and it has just made my life so overtly complicated that everyday seems like a struggle to keep the lies from our families. However, the alternative of telling our parents is unthinkable. Only I know what my parents are like and I know they will disown me. I never chose to be gay. Sexual attraction is something I cannot control. I have tried to be with women but to put it frankly am not stimulated by them. Tia you cannot tell who is gay or not by looking at them. People think I am straight as I am married! The point I would like to make is that being gay and from a Muslim background is an immense struggle where suicidal thoughts are not too infrequent.
Hi, Please can you explain – i am a new convert to islam, how can being Gay be justified within the religious text of Islam? please help by naming certain passages etc… I personally dont like to judge anyone – but i need real answers her in order not to be confused with my new religion – thank you
be ur self
I am looking for gey gay to marry…100% serious
It should probably be stated that all religions DO NOT condemn homosexuality. In Buddhism and Hinduism for instance, the discourse is largely about sexuality versus celibacy. Homosexuality vs. heterosexuality becomes a non-issue here. Indeed many homosexuals, like E.M. Forster, Christopher Isherwood, and Edward Carpenter, were welcomed into Vedanta philosophy by their spiritual teachers, who didn’t care at all that they were gay. Edward Carpenter went on to become a teacher in his own right. Christopher Isherwood was a major proponent of Sri Ramakrishna’s teaching.
Some of the Hindu scriptures openly use homosexual imagery in a positive light. Some Hindu temples have homosexual iconography on them to this day.
Native American religions had a tradition of Two-Spirit people. African spirituality also allowed for gender fluidity.
It is really the Abrahamic religions that have the biggest problem with homosexuality. Many other spiritual traditions either explicitly accept it or just don’t care about it and treat it as a non-issue and tolerate it without too many problems.
Why is it that people who do not have any homosexual feelings feel that they can pronounce judgment on the mind of a homosexual? If you are not homosexual you will never understand and therefore are NOT qualified to comment on what a homosexual feels and does. Furthermore, drug addicts, gamblers etc are addictions that arise largely during adulthood. Reciprocal love for another human being is not an addiction; it is a basic human right. AND many homosexuals realise they are attracted to the same gender from a very early age. AND consensual sex between two human adults based on respect and love is what matters. There is disease of mankind that is worse than anything else – and its called Ignorance.
For those who want to read the discussion on this topic, refer to here
[edited by Sumera – you could’ve put your point across without all the vulgar language and expletives]
Email me for some knowledge you sick mental retards.
Hi just wanted to say that i was born as a boy, when I was 3 years old I knew I had the wrong body. I did not choose to be gay. I was born gay. So now im a grown woman. People cant tell that im gay.I feel so sorry for homosexuals with Muslin background. I wish them the best. Their best bet is to move out.
I think that homosexuality is completely not a holy act for muslims to practise because Allah created sex as an activity between males and females and not with the same-sex. It is stated in one of the hadiths that Allah does not endorse anal sex between heterosexuals so please just figure it out yourself the great consequences homosexuals are subjected to.
I am gay but gentleman, I am looking for a lesbian but very female, to have a baby and to be a family, and live together all the time. write me all lesbian miss to firstname.lastname@example.org
Hi, im 26 years old muslim girl. looking for moc(marriage of conv) im very open minded and friendly. no phycial intimacy.
i live in USA. if you are looking the same please contact me thanks
hi gay muslim male seeks lesbian for moc marriage, very serious and 100% genuine, any females interested then msg me at email@example.com
i wud ideally like to get on with them as friends so we wud be very confortable with this arrangement?
I am a straight looking young(ish) male of Pakistani origin, living and working in the UK under the highly skilled migrant program. I am a secular minded person. I want to get married to a girl and have a family life but I don’t want to lie to her about my sexuality. I am bisexual (more gay than straight). If you are a lesbian, who would like to have a family and freedom to pursue your sexuality at the same time, you are welcome to contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org
If you are straight and can accept your other-half’s sexual orientation, you may also contact me. I look fwd to hear from those who are interested in this idea.
i am looking for a gay bengali muslim male who is willing to take part in a marriage of convenience with my partner as she is getting pressure from her family.
if u are interested please let me know
Hi, this is adil from Andaman islands india, broughtup in the islands itself, basically a christian. nearing 26yrs..and understand the requirements of society. so wants to look out for a Lesbian girl for MOC, if any one interested pls contact
I am manly guy with good manners and decent looks working as a finance executive in Singapore. Indian with good family background. Looking for a lesbian woman for a Marriage of convenience. 100% genuine and trust-worthy. No physical intimacy involved. If interested, keep me posted at email@example.com
This 25 years old Indian Guy, looking for marraige of convenience.
if interested, Please contact me – firstname.lastname@example.org –
Sumera this post of yours is acting like a match making site for lesbians and gays! 😛
anyway, i just think its better to be honest and having one such MOC than getting married to a straight person and then ruining their life
Honestly I think somebody needs to open an MOC website for muslim gays and lesbians.
I don’t see any problem with MOC. Some people will say MOC is invalid but I don’t think so.Because there is friendship and love could grow for eachother.Its better than getting married to someone straight and not telling the truth. I know many gay guys married to straight girls have 1 or more gay partners. Also i know that one straight girl who knows his husband is gay and always worry when his husband goes out with men or talk to men. Because many straight people think gay guys are always thinking about sex which is not true.
even though i attract to man but i think i can like a lesbian girl more than a straight girl because i think the lesbian girl will understand more. some people think that just because you are gay you are having sex with other man everyday or so. but i think its more mental than physical. I wish it was just sex but its not. its more of a mental.
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